In a press release at the end of March, Adventist Health Tulare announced it had received a coveted renewal of its accreditation by “one of the world’s leading certification, assurance and risk management provider(s), but one patient’s experience contradicts that assessment.
By awarding its re-accreditation, DNV, the company that surveyed Adventist’s patient safety standards in Tulare, said the facility met or exceeded the Conditions of Permission established by the US Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Hospitals must meet those conditions to receive federal funding from those sources.
“The DNV accreditation program is consistent with our commitment to quality and patient safety,” said Andrea Kofl, president of Adventist Health in the Central Valley. “The hospital’s successful completion of the accreditation process proves that it is following the best practices to provide the best experience for our patients, staff and visitors.”
Patient Describes Substandard Conditions
But just a week before Adventist announced DNV’s renewal of accreditation, a Tulare woman said her husband spent two days being treated at Adventist Health Tulare, and she described a much less capable hospital. Her husband — the couple is not named in this article to protect their privacy — spent two nights in a barren room lacking heat, experiencing a series of ineffective interactions with staff, missing medications, and finding a lack of basic amenities.
The patient had presented himself at the emergency department in mid-March, with symptoms he thought indicated a heart attack. The patient’s wife said he’d avoided Tulare’s hospital for 20 years, but sought treatment there because he felt his life was in immediate danger.
He eventually checked himself out against his physician’s advice.
“He called me. He was crying,” the man’s wife said. “He said, ‘I feel like I’m going to die in here.’”
She hung up the call for help and got in her car to retrieve her husband.
“I said check yourself out. I’ll be right there,” she said. “The doctor let him check out against their advice.”
No Towels, No Toothbrush
The patient eventually learned he had not had a heart attack, but was suffering from acute pancreatitis instead, an extremely painful condition that his wife says was exacerbated by his treatment by Adventist Health Tulare.
“He was much, much better once he got home,” the man’s wife said.
Chief among the couple’s complaints was a lack of heat. Temperatures at night during their stay dipped into the low 40s. Complaints were met with additional blankets, but no explanation of why the heat was off or when it might come on.
“The late afternoon on the second day, the heat finally came on,” the patient’s wife said. “They kept piling blankets on him. I had a big coat on, because I tried to stay with him, but they shooed me out (at the end of visiting hours).”
There were also no towels in the patient’s room, and none were brought when he requested them. He was also not given basic hygiene products, which were also requested.
“We never got towels. We got four wash clothes that were yellowed,” the wife of the patient said. “On the second day, the gal brought the washcloths and the toothbrush.”
Medications Missed, Delayed
Most concerning, medications the patient was assured by ED staff he would receive were given late or not at all. The first day of his stay, the patient did not receive medication for hypertension and antianxiety, medications the hospital apparently had on hand specifically to administer in this case.
“They didn’t give him anything the first day or the second day in the morning,” his wife said. “When the doctor made his rounds, he acted like he really didn’t want to. After two hours, no meds.”
She then asked a nurse to bring the medications, but got nothing despite reassurance the issue would be resolved. Tracking down a second nurse yielded the same lack of treatment; a third nurse discovered the patient’s medications were in the hospital, but had not been properly entered into the system for distribution.
It was following that effort, when the patient’s wife had left, the patient reached his breaking point and discharged himself against medical advice. Besides lack of treatment and little response to requests, the couple also found the hospital room to be stark and inhospitable.
“The room was disgusting,” the patient’s wife said. “It was completely blah. There was nothing on the walls. It was like a mental ward, if you can imagine.”
Adventist Issues Statement
In response to the descriptions of the patient’s experience, Adventist Health Tulare issued the following statement from Dr. Gurvinder Kaur, Adventist Health in the Central Valley’s chief medical officer:
We are disappointed when we learn that we may not have met the expectations of our patients. We constantly strive to deliver safe, high-quality and compassionate care to all of our patients. It is our hope that if a patient feels that we did not meet their expectations, they will bring their concerns to us so we have an opportunity to appropriately address them. We remain committed to living God’s love by inspiring health, wholeness and hope.
The wife of the man who felt his experience at the facility was going to take his life said she felt conditions and treatment at the hospital were not up to modern standards, comparing them to facilities in the 1960s.
“I was shocked,” she said. “Millions of dollars people have paid, and it’s terrible the way it’s been run.”
Questioning Hospital’s Solvency
A spokesperson for Adventist expressed hope the patient in question and his family would contact the hospital directly with their complaints in hopes of resolving them. The patient’s wife said she did complain to a hospital administrator she is now unable to name.
“I was so upset. I told him, ‘What’s wrong with this hospital?’ It’s falling apart,” she said. “He said, ‘Well Adventist just took on more than they thought.’”
Her husband’s experience leads her to question Adventist Health Tulare ‘s ability to pay its bills.
“What’s going on with this hospital? Are they broke?” she said. “No heat. No towels. No amenities. That’s a sign they’re not paying their bills.”
She’s also worried others who have sought treatment there have had similar experiences they would like to share.
“I’m sure there are people out there with the same story,” she said.
DNV Accreditation Requirements & Categories
The requirements for accreditation through DNV are directly related to CMS’s Conditions of Participation (CoPs). They apply to any size hospital, and they’re less prescriptive than any other accrediting agencies’ standards — giving healthcare organizations the ability to prioritize initiatives for continuous improvement.
JCHAO is the golden standard of hospital surveys, I wish Community would have been given the right to manage the hospital.
I had the same problem. Left me by myself, with out any one checking on me. It was cold, no one to ask for an extra blanket. Had to use the restroom, no one to assist me, or even ask to use the restroom. I was stuck in a place where I couldn’t get up out of bed and do for myself. I could here the staff talking with each other, about the good times they had over the weekend. They were more into them selves than then were with the duties. When I first entered the ER part, first thing I was asked,”” WHAT DO YOU WANT”, THAT BEING SAID, I have a Pace Maker, and I was having alot of pain that needed to be addressed. The Hospital is having problems that need to be addressed. I live in Tulare, I told my family, if iam dieing, take me to Visalia, I would take that chance.
Ya know, I am always uneasy about unnamed sources in an article. Rich or poor, known or unknown in this town, if you have complaints about our hospital and “elect” to go public about it then why not own it? To me if your name is included in the article it lends more credibility to your complaints and that you believe in and stand by your complaints. Just curious…… Did the family set up a meeting with the hospital administrator after discharge or bother to contact any hospital board member about their experience “prior” to talking to the press? If the hospital isn’t up to par with their services that are being rendered to patients on a consistent basis then it is information that needs to be shared with the town. Just on a personal note here….. I was a patient in a couple of different hospitals during the 60’s both here in Tulare and elsewhere, and I remember the rooms to be clean, relatively comfortable, and the medical staff quite professional in patient care.
Because the people of Tulare will harass, belittle and degenerate those who speak up, right or wrong. You are, of course, completely aware of this. Protecting sources from that unreasonable hatred is part of my job. The bottom line is getting out the story to protect others is more important than your comfort. Have I been wrong yet? Why would I be now?
Point taken. Still……
You mean the people of Tulare don’t have a right to question your methods. It’s your job to report accurate information. You are just making excuses . Jesse in the comment section isn’t getting anything negative. That’s because most people in Tulare respect people willing to give their name but if something doesn’t add up you can bet people in this town are going to question it . As they should . The public has a right to question the accuracy of a news story’s . Especially when unnamed people are making accusations. You could at least have the decency to acknowledge someone’s concerns about anonymous sources as fair and reasonable , instead of bullying them . There are journalists standards when writing a story using anonymous sources. What verification did you seek ? Did you ask to see any paperwork ? You didn’t even talk to the actual patient , why is that ? It doesn’t sound like you used any of the ethical guidelines used in journalism when running a story with anonymous sources. You obviously got a statement for Adventist Health but did you offer to put them in touch with the patient ? Because that would be the best thing to do . How can AH even respond accordingly when they don’t have any information ? Have you been wrong before? Yes you have . Your article on comments made by Gary Herbst about AH during the pandemic is one . Do better
Actually Xavier I have no problem with David protecting his source, journalist do that all the time especially if their source makes that a condition of the interview. I assumed that keeping their names out of the article was at their request. I was merely opining that when someone decides to go public and engages in an interview with the press about their complaint then to me I give more weight to the story if that person publicly owns and stands by their complaint. I did not consider his response to my comment as bullying. I know the difference between bullying and a direct and ardent explanation of his reasoning behind not publishing his source’s names. I also would not have a moment’s hesitation in calling him out if I thought he was being a bully and you of all people know that to be a fact. 🙂
I agree with you about anonymous sources can be ok sometimes and also that people who use their names gives credibility to the story vs being anonymous. However there is a standard that many journalists meet before they publish it. It doesn’t sound like he considered that and he didn’t even talk to the patient. Which also diminishes this story. He also does not say who’s decision it was to stay anonymous. If it was a condition then he should say it . The other issue is just how important is protecting the source. Is Dave implying physical harm ? Let’s get real . No one is going to shame anyone for having a bad experience. Dave is making excuses. He already wrote a previous hit piece on AH . So it’s only reasonable to doubt him here . He could have just made the whole thing up . He provided zero evidence this even happened.There is a little group of anti AH people. I know he talks to them . So how do we know we can trust his story . I understand very well theses things happen at all hospitals especially now that so many healthcare workers quit. I know for a fact AH is committed to serving the people. Yeah you can handle yourself but I seen Dave name call and bully others so his bullying of you may not effect you personally but it’s meant to intimidate others from speaking up . If he doesn’t like criticism then he needs to do a better job
Xavier, David could print that the Pope is Catholic and an elderly white male and YOU would have an issue with that. It is also obvious that you will automatically step up to act as a protector of the hospital, and as a member of the Hospital Board that in its self is unsurprising. You may not like the message or the messenger but as usual you seek to annihilate both for an obvious transparent reason, your open distain for David and the Valley Voice. Bullying? Once again you are the pot calling the kettle black.
Been in there 3 times. Never had anything but outstanding excellent care! Questioning this story.
I assure you that story is true and exactly as I told Dave. The point of my story is in the last paragraph: questioning the hospital’s solvency. Any of you would question it if you were unable to get simple items that you had requested like towels, toiletries, heat and Meds. Come on now, this is basic needs. The room was drab. You can go look at the rooms and picture it yourself. Put everything together and it appears the hospital is having some financial issues. Even the hospital spokesperson that I talked to commented that the hospital is falling apart and that Adventist hadn’t gotten into more than they had bargained for. And no, I don’t what my name or my husband’s name mentioned. I asked Dave not to mention it and I have a right to be anonymous.
And by the way, we were told that we would get an email to a link for the portal so that we could see the records. That never happened. The hospital has our phone numbers and websites but they never reached out to us so that tells us they aren’t interested in what happened. I didn’t mention the name of the hospital spokesperson but I was so upset by the situation that I forgot to ask his name.
No Xavier it’s not physical harm, it’s your bullying attitude and same for your sidekick Linda. She is vile.
As a board member you should embrace these comments and be proactive, not character assassinate and try to belittle people.
You and Linda both need to go to charm school or leadership classes.
These are simple things that should be in place for the patient. Isn’t that the point? Also, no meds? Come on. Quit being a blowhole and worrying about your feelings being hurt and do something positive!
Lisa sounds to me like you should be going to Charm school with us . My issue isn’t with the patient. It’s with the ValleyVoice and their sloppy work . Have a nice Easter
My name is Eddie M.
I am the patient my wife is speaking about in this article. Everything that she has said is correct. Also, Everything that David has reported is exactly correct as reported to him too. I also have photos of everything that has been reported. And if David needs them, I will be happy to provide them to him. Please don’t beat up on the messenger David is just doing his job. We should thankful for reporters like him that have the nerves and strength to write the article. Regardless of the hate, bullying and negativity that he is going to be get.
I felt that since the doctor nor hospital never reached out to me to check on how I was doing. Or emailed me the portal information they promised, they were going to email and follow up. They really didn’t care about their patients or their community hospital.
On another note the RN’s really tried hard and did the best they could. Without, the doctors support. I felt like they were little soldiers going to battle with very little resources and no support from the top.
You could hear them talking in the hall or the next room. Making excuses for the doctors being late or getting back to them etc. The nurses should keep all of their personal stories and gossip to themselves, especially during shift changes. They don’t realize how far their voices carry when they are yapping in the halls.
I also wish they would make them all wear their name tags / badges with their name out all the time. So you don’t have to ask them their name. But, I guess they don’t really want you to know it or do they? It should be in large bold letters easy for older folks like me to see.
I believe that everyone in this hospital should go tour other updated hospitals that have spent millions like Tulare Hospital did. And see what they look like at Kaweah or Sierra View. I have been in those hospitals they show pride cleanliness new. And they really know how to give the patient the royal treatment. They treat you like a patient should be treated.
Please have the heating and cooling checked out by a professional commercial contractor. Because it was very cold in that room. I had my heavy jacket on it I was still very cold at night.
The nurse call button box needs to have a clip to fasten them to sheet or bed rails. They kept falling to the floor and you could not pull down the rail on the bed. So you would have to scream to the nurse. or tie it in a knot to keep it from sliding down the side of the bed.
Please don’t shoot the messenger. He is doing a Great Job!
Thank you Eddie for your candor. It is very much appreciated. I can honestly say that I have great respect for David and the Valley Voice. It was not my intent to throw shade at him or on the body of his work nor on his work ethics. As I initially stated, if the hospital isn’t up to par with their services that are being rendered to patients on a consistent basis then it is information that needs to be shared with the town. Thank you and your wife for sharing your experiences at the hospital. Perhaps what is needed is a public wake-up call. Hopefully the hospital will personally address the issues that have been raised. Hopefully Xavier will sit this one out and not pour more fuel on the fire with his ongoing feud toward the Valley Voice.
Barbara the ValleyVoice is a bias news outlet that doesn’t fact check or verify their stories. It cost too much time and money to make sure what they are writing about it accurate. Chalking it up to a feud doesn’t fly . I have always complimented Tony Maldonado for his work . However Catherine and Dave have a habit of writing what they want their readers to think instead of an accurate story. Dave’s last article about the VA and Evolutions was a piles of garbage. He was mad at me because I named him at a meeting for misquoting me in one of his articles. He was so angry he wanted the board to censor me . Dave’s story about AH and Gary Herbst was so questionable that the Sun Gazette did their own story on it . The Sun Gazette article showed something different and contrary to Dave’s article . I have not just commented on Hospital issues . I have chime in on the their articles about Keith Fagundes. I’m objective in my criticism. The ValleyVoice last article on the cemetery was one where I pointed out a substantial falsehood . It took them awhile but they retracted it with an apology. You can make all the excuses for the ValleyVoice if you wish but I’m going to call them out for sloppy journalism when I see it
Eddie I’m sorry this happened to you ! My criticism of Dave goes back to several different stories he had done not to mention his poor treatment of people on this website and social media. When trust is lost because a journalist writes several factually incorrect articles , It’s only natural to question everything . That said the fact that you were willing to speak up and verify the story is much appreciated. I pray you are feeling better . I hope you can talk to someone at Adventist Health so they can properly addressed this . If you need help with that , then please call me and I can get you in touch with the right person. My number is (559) 707- 2497 .
It costs nothing financially to verify the facts and very little time, that’s why the Valley Voice always does.
The Valley Voice has never retracted a story about the Tulare Cemetery. We made a correction to our last story about a client’s right to sue, and it appears they might be suing for one of Tulare Cemetery’s many botched burials.
Concerning the article to which Xavier is referring we made the following statement on facebook,
“The Valley Voice would like to issue a correction to the article “Discovery of new disinterment leads to more questions at Tulare Cemetery” posted on December 16 and written by Catherine Doe in collaboration with Tony Maldonado.”
Catherine. Did you call the cemetery office and talk to the district manager to verify the form ? No you didn’t. Did you call me the chair of the board at the time to verify? No you didn’t. You ran with the story because you wanted to make the cemetery look as bad as possible because you work with a Facebook group who wants control of the cemetery. A group that has bragged about how they get board members to quit , by using slander. Your articles are written to please them at the expense of the truth . This why you wrote “ under the cover of darkness “ . You portrayed the cemetery as some grave robbers hiding their actions in the night . The truth is , the crew showed up at their usual time early morning. In the dark but not for long . By the time the crews gets all their equipment prepared the morning light appears .30 minutes of darkness is hardly under cover . The funny thing is how so many people see what you are doing . The real story happened 3 years earlier when an employee who is no longer employed at the cemetery failed again to properly verify the plot and how the current cemetery staff found and corrected the mistake. You somehow wanted to blame the current staff of some wrong doing but really could not so to ran with the form . Had you cared about the truth you would have called Clara and she would have explained it to you but then you wouldn’t have had your excuse to write your hit piece. Same goes for the police report article. Did you call me for my side of the story ? No you didn’t. because you got some crazy obsession. The fact that you stolen my post on my personal Facebook page proves it . You didn’t even realize how most people view that as a negative about you . No wonder people do not trust the ValleyVoice. I hear it from many people .
Any anonymous story’s by journalists who have a record of being bias and or sloppy untrue writing are going to be questioned . It’s nothing against the anonymous source however they should realize that when people do not trust a media outlet then any anonymous sources are going to be question. Use your name or at least provide documentation . There is a small group of people who did everything they could to keep Adventist from operating the Tulare Hospital. They were anonymous on many occasions. They actively opposed Measure H which gave the Hospital Board the authority to lease the Hospital to Adventist. Many written comments against Measure H were anonymous. They wanted Measure H to fail . Which meant the Hospital would have had to close down again only after being open a few months . These people wanted the Hospital to sit empty for over a year and then try to pass a 100 million dollar bond . Which would have failed resulting in a permanent closed hospital. Why ? Because they wanted Fresno Community to lease the Hospital. The problem with that is Fresno Community didn’t want the Tulare hospital. The board chair Kevin Northcraft and our staff meet with the CEO of Fresno Community and the CEO was clear , they were not interested . This small group of people were being lie too . How do I know ? Because the same person telling them lies was also telling them to me . However I figured it out . They were being told a different story. They still believe that if you get rid of Adventist Health. That Fresno will take over . This little group still operates as anonymous. So you can see why I’m going to question anonymous story’s. It’s nothing against the anonymous person . I wish you the best . The hospital got into trouble and closed because certain peoples crazy plans . I’m not going to let that happen again. So it’s ok ! Call me names , that’s not going to stop me from speaking up . Dave already wrote a very bias story about the VA wanting to lease the gym . So that means you can’t be trusted. Dave you left out very important facts about the VA lease . You wanted to made it look bad . All you did was show people you can’t be trusted.
Xavier aka Tulare’s Avenger, the righter of all “his” perceived wrongs. He alone is the self-appointed protector and avenger of Adventist Health Tulare and Tulare Public Cemetery. Apparently other members on both boards rarely if ever publicly opine (with the exception of Alberto). Does their silence convey complicity in Xavier’s narcissistic rants against the Valley Voice and against citizens who share their thoughts and experiences? Is Xavier’s narcissistic style of communicating in his self-appointed role as public spokesperson for the hospital and cemetery to be the look and sound that both boards would identify with? Is this how a community public board wants a member of theirs to publicly conduct him/herself? Does either of these boards think it is appropriate for a fellow board member to be verbally combative when communicating publicly? It would be refreshing to hear something from other board members. Perhaps someone will engage the public in dialogue during a public board meeting, which I guess one might to be an appropriate way for an actual board member to address this article.
LOL Barbara, you will do anything to protect the ValleyVoice. Does the truth matter to you ? It doesn’t appear too , in my opinion. Facts are Facts . Objective people look at the facts . Bias people let their emotions control them . Your name calling is obviously proof that you let your emotions rule you . You support the ValleyVoice , right or wrong . I’m speaking as a citizen and I’m exercising my first amendment right to do so . Bottom line is you just want me to be silent . Well I’m not going to be . Sounds like you are telling me to be a good little politician and sit over in the corner. If you ask me far too many public officials are silent when they should be speaking up . A good citizen would disagree with someone but defend their right to say it . A good citizen would consider what is being said . It’s a Fact the ValleyVoice had to correct an article about the cemetery. It’s a fact it was a substantial error on the part of ValleyVoice . ( people accused the cemetery staff of bullying the family) It’s a fact the ValleyVoice did not contact the cemetery to verify the story . Go ask the cemetery staff how they feel about it . I can tell you they felt the ValleyVoice smeared them . But you don’t care about them . Now Barbara would you care to address these facts ? Or are you going to deflect for the ValleyVoice ? Are you the protector of the ValleyVoice? Go ask Catherine why she didn’t call the cemetery’s district manager to verify her story ? Had she called she would not have had to issue a correction . You seems to be a dishonest person.
lol
No Xavier, it’s just about seeing your name in print. People are so over it. The commenters are right. Why doesn’t any other board member speak up?? Do you go on and on just to see that you are in print? Get back to the original story and investigate these complaints, isn’t that your job???!
Lisa ,No it isn’t my job but I gave Eddie M my number if he needs help getting a hold of the right person to speak with . Also I’m speaking as a private citizen not a board member . There is no commenters . There is just Barbara and yourself and like her you just want me to be silent. Barbara wants to protect the ValleyVoice from being held accountable and you hate Adventist Health. I’m not going to tell you who you can hate or like . That’s your right but you don’t have a right to spread lies to the community. A few months ago you made a comment on Facebook that Tulare didn’t have an ICU . After someone corrected you . You deleted your comment . The thing is you never should have said something if it wasn’t true . The same goes for the ValleyVoice.
Lisa the one thing I’ll say about Xavier is that he stays true to form. He loves attention, good and bad. 😆 As for the hospital is concerned as a property owner I pay taxes on the hospital and as someone who has lived here the majority of my 75 plus years I have counted on its services from time to time for me and for family and friends. Of course most if not all Tulare and want the hospital to be all that it can be (regardless of you know who’s narcissistic accusations to the contrary). I appreciate Adventist Health taking over our failed hospital and hope they listen to Anonymous’s perceptions on their experiences garnered there while in their hospitall’s care. If they need to be upping their game then hopefully they will do so. Paint and a little deco goes a long ways. If their maintenance guys can’t fix the cooling and heating units they should call Morris Levin & Son or some other outside service to get it fixed. All in all if there are problems that affect patient care Adventist can’t fixed them if they aren’t made aware of them. This article brings that awareness front and center. The ball is now in their court. I believe they will listen and act on improving what they can. At least I am hoping so.
No Barbara I see your comments all over Facebook arguing with people. Does that mean you are a narcissist seeking attention too 😂 ? I’m holding people accountable. How is that bad ? Sure arguments are negative but this town suffered from bad people getting control of our hospital. The sad thing is the small group of people speaking up against the takeover were attacked too . It wasn’t until things got really bad that others started waking up . I still remember some people attacking me when I join that small group . They told me that those people were just seeking attention but now we know the rest of the story. People seeking negative attention do bad things not good . So you tell me , what have I done wrong ? What damage have I done ? what lies have I told ? What laws have I broken ?
Xavier, your right to speak as a private citizen doesn’t exist while you serve a on a public entity. I feel sorry for you, I truly do.
You want to continue to make accusations against me, feel free. You have -0-effect on me.
Please just do your job as a board member and bring this up at the next board meeting.
I wouldn’t want to listen to you ramble on the phone for an hour and I wouldn’t wish it on these people having the problems make the same mistake.
Lisa
The healthcare district has no authority to investigate this issue. We do not operate the Hospital. We lease it to Adventist Health. However like I already said . I posted my number to Eddie M and offered assistance to contact the appropriate person at AH . The ball is in his court . I’m confident AH will take care of it but if the patient refuses to contact AH then what can they do ? Dr Kuar’s statement speaks for itself.
You know when you see comments from one particular person that are novels? Isn’t the first thing that crosses your mind is that the person is crazy?
Just to let you know, Xavier’s comments on this thread are almost three times longer than the story itself, and that is commonplace for Xavier. Whenever we publish a story that in some way involves Xavier I just sit back and wait for the crazy, obsessive rants to roll out – and he never disappoints. Guess I’ll have to keep counting too after he reads this comment, because Xavier can never, never not respond.
No wonder someone finally privately told Xavier to quit the trolling and bullying on facebook.
Catherine Nope wrong again. No one privately told me anything. That is so typical of you just to make things up . I guess you don’t like being held accountable for your bias , inaccurate , and sloppy journalism. You are dishonest and unethical. I have a long list of the things you have done. You actually involved yourself in illegal activity by writing articles to cover up a public official who was no longer eligible to serve on a public board but illegally presented as legal. You use your media outlet to bully people . Someone needs to call out ValleyVoice when it publishes substandard article , especially when you unfairly target people just because you feel like it . People are actually sick of what you do . You took a paper with a good reputation and ruined it . Why don’t you answer some questions. Why didn’t you call Clara Bernardo to get clarification on the story you retracted because it was completely false? Why did you have Alexandria Feller call the cemetery office and lie to the cemetery staff ? You know the cemetery office has caller ID , Her number was confirmed. Experts in Journalism say what you did is highly unethical . Do you care to answer these questions?
Wow – one hour and twenty minutes to take the bait.